Skip to content
Jessica Chastain is more than aware of how topical Dreams is.
Her latest team-up with Mexican filmmaker Michel Franco, off the back of his 2023 movie Memory with Chastain and Peter Sarsgaard, is a provocative take on the immigrant experience.
Premiering in competition at this year’s Berlin Film Festival, Dreams follows Jennifer, a wealthy socialite living in San Francisco who, under the wing of her powerful father, is a huge donor to the arts. She supports a dance foundation in Mexico City and begins a passionate love affair with a younger, Mexican ballet dancer, Fernando (Isaac Hernández), who illegally crosses the U.S. border to be with her. When the relationship threatens to damage Jennifer’s pristine reputation, Chastain’s character is forced to make consequential decisions over his future.
“It’s undeniably political,” Chastain tells The Hollywood Reporter about coming to Berlin with Dreams. “It definitely delves into the relationship between America and Mexico.” The film arrives at a time when President Trump has been taking aggressive policy action over undocumented immigrants in the States, with his newly appointed border czar Tom Homan orchestrating mass deportations across the country.
“If you look at our Statue of Liberty, if you look at how this country was formed, it’s a country that has embraced the excellence of immigrants,” Chastain says. “I have my own personal politics and personal beliefs that I’m sure are not hard to decipher … But playing Jennifer, I couldn’t filter it through my own moral lens because it would have softened her.”
Chastain unpacked the new movie with THR, explaining how she had to remove her personal politics to convincingly embody Jennifer, how Franco’s filmmaking helps others to feel more human and her own fond memories of the Berlinale.
I have so many questions for you! Let’s start at the beginning. Did Michel come to you for Dreams?
JESSICA CHASTAIN Well, I was working on Memory for him — that movie I did with Peter Sarsgaard — and we were on set, and he came to me with the seedlings of an idea. It was so sweet. It was like, the second week of filming together, and he came up to me when I was just relaxing, and he said, “I’m in love with working with you, let’s figure out our next film.” And I’m like, “All right, let’s do it.” So we just started talking about these ideas he had, and it could not have been more of a 180 from the character I played in Memory. I like that, when the characters differ. When I’m not playing the same energy over and over again.
How did he describe the character of Jennifer to you, when it was still a seedling of an idea?
It’s hard to remember now. Going back, I know the conversations we had about her while he was developing and writing the script. I mean, I just find her so incredibly lonely. I know she appears to be powerful. That’s what she wants everyone to feel, that she has ultimate power and authority. But the reality is I think she’s unable to be in any kind of relationship unless she feels she has dominance, and because of that, she really has no power. Do you know what I mean? To be a confident human being, you have to be willing to allow someone to be your equal. With Jennifer, it’s really quite dark. I think she does love Fernando, and the only way she can really know how to love is to feel like she’s in control of and in charge of how the relationship is formulated.
Their life in Mexico City is everything she wants, but she’s not even aware of the reality of it. She’s built a beautiful cage for him to live in and when he shows up to be in a real relationship with her, she’s not able to do that. In some sense, it’s so dark to even say this out loud — she treats him like a pet.
She does. We land at a point where their relationship is already established, and I wonder how you envisioned their life together before we, the audience, arrive?
I think she has a beautiful life with him in Mexico City. I think that’s where they met, and they have a house together. They really have a life together. She visits him, but she doesn’t live with him. And in some sense, like in the olden days there’d be a kept woman, he’s her kept man. She feels deep love in that type of relationship and situation. She’s dominated by the men around her — her father and, in some sense, her brother. So it’s the idea that she’s now inflicting that dominance without even being aware of it. Because for her, it’s love. Her father loves her even though he treats her like she’s a child and she can’t take care of herself. Her brother loves her even though, again, he treats her like she can’t take care of herself. So in loving someone else, she does the same thing. She treats him as a child who can’t make decisions that are best for himself.
She has no idea he’s planning on crossing the border illegally to be with her. She never said she wanted that. I think she feels quite violated that he’s come into her space without asking her, and yet confused, because she does love him, and she wonders a few times, “Could it work this way?” And then she really sees like, “Oh, it can’t work this way. I need to do the things that will be the best thing for us, and the best thing for us is to go back to our life the way it was.” She thinks she’s taking care of the relationship by making decisions about another human being without consulting them. Again, treating him like a pet or a child.
But for Fernando, to stay in Mexico isn’t enough. He has that dream, as an immigrant. Did Michel ever speak to you about what kind of political or social commentary he was making with how Fernando is treated?
It’s undeniably political. It definitely delves into the relationship between America and Mexico. But I think the reason I really like working with Michel is it provokes thought. It provokes discussion. It’s why I really respond to him. He’s a provocateur, so he’s not going to answer all these questions. What I love is Fernando isn’t treated up until the final moment as a martyr. He does some quite dark things himself. It’s important to me not to be so specific with the answers of what the film is trying to say, thematically. But yes, it’s undeniably political, and it is very relevant for what’s happening as we speak.
Well, I wanted to ask you about that. Obviously this film was not made under the current administration, but do you feel conscious that Dreams is going out into the world at a time when such aggressive action is being taken toward undocumented immigrants?
If you look at our Statue of Liberty, if you look at how this country was formed, it’s a country that has embraced the excellence of immigrants. I have my own personal politics and personal beliefs that I’m sure are not hard to decipher. Look throughout my Instagram or the things I’ve said years ago. But playing Jennifer, I couldn’t filter it through my own moral lens, because it would have softened her. In the story, she is oblivious to the immigrant experience, and that’s why she behaves the way she does. Jennifer wholeheartedly believes she’s a good person who is born with privilege, but she gives back. She helps people. I think she doesn’t see the ways in which she can be cruel and that all comes from her ignorance. I can’t come in and play it as myself, because if I was playing it as myself, through my own lens, the story would be completely different and she would have behaved in a different way. So I had to completely remove my own personal politics in order to approach the story the way that we did.
Then we get to that final 20 minutes, where it goes to a level I really wasn’t expecting.
And what does she do in the final moment? She has him in a cage. Yes, it’s metaphorical. It’s not as literal. He puts her more in a literal cage and at the end, she really clips his wings. She damages his ability, his way of flying. I don’t want to be so literal when I talk about the film, because there’s so much in there. It’s why Michel is the incredible filmmaker he is.
Were you quite set on making sure that audiences shouldn’t like Jennifer, as a character?
I never think about that. My favorite actress is Isabelle Huppert, and I hate her in a lot of films. (Laughs.) I love her as an actress, but I hate her characters in a lot of films. Or I don’t hate her, but I feel sorry for her, so I think that’s the trick when you’re playing a character that isn’t necessarily winning. In some sense, [Jennifer and Fernando] have their flaws. They make their mistakes, like all people do. When you’re playing someone who’s making a lot of mistakes, [you have] to find the humanity in them. When I saw the film, I felt good about what I saw. I really felt sorry for Jennifer. Because she does horrible things, but she is so lonely. There’s no moment of hope for Jennifer.
So true. Even her house in San Francisco is so sterile. There’s no character. They’re purposeful, those details.
Except when she’s in Mexico City.
Yes! She’s in flowy dresses.
With patterns! The house is warmer. There’s plants everywhere.
There is quite an unknowable quality to her. That glimpse of when she’s talking to her father and says she’s infertile. It suddenly paints a more detailed picture.
And this family, the men are in charge, right? She has to get her brother to sign something in order to get money for her little projects. She tries to be in charge, but she’s kind of there as a glorified assistant. When we first meet the father and he gives speeches about his children, he gives a very accomplished speech about his son, and then he goes, “And my beautiful daughter, Jennifer.” He talks about her beauty. He doesn’t talk about any of her accomplishments. In many societies, the role of a woman is to have children and that’s where your value comes from. And so if she’s in this family where she can’t have children, then you ask yourself, “Where’s her worth? How does she see herself as a woman, and where does she find her womanhood?”
And the sexual assault part of it … We’re talking about Jennifer doing horrible things, we’re talking about Fernando doing horrible things. When you allow a character to have the positive aspects of their character, but also the incredibly negative aspects of their character, you’re allowing them to be human. And for years with female roles, I have often decried that I didn’t want to play the perfect wife. I found that in the United States and in our industry, primarily — not in France and not in Europe, where women are allowed to be incredibly complex — that when you erase those horrible things that a character does, you’re erasing their humanity. We all have the light and the dark within us. I think that’s why Michel is the filmmaker he is. I think that’s why he’s the provocateur he is. He’s not saying anything is good or bad, he’s just wants to provoke, create thought, create discussion, and hopefully through our industry and through storytelling, help us all feel more human.
Why do you think Dreams is called Dreams?
I mean, what was that phrase? We are all dreamers. We talk about the United States and certain policies that are happening, where they want to end that status for dreamers. There are so many layers to what the title is. Fernando sees his life, his dream, coming true in the United States, and in some sense, she’s fully living in Mexico. There’s no sense that one country is better than the other. It’s just for these two people, they’re finding different parts of themselves in different countries. I’m sure Dreams touches on all of those things.
Do you like the festival?
Yes! In fact, the first time I was at the Berlin Film Festival it was with my best friend, Jess Weixler. She did a film called Teeth (2007), and it was the very first film she ever did. She won best actress in Sundance for it. Then it was going to Berlin. And I said, “OK, I’m going to fly myself to Berlin to be with you.” I carried her coat on the red carpet when she took her pictures. This was a long time ago. And then she did the same for me when The Tree of Life went to Cannes [in 2011]. She showed up and she carried my purse when I was taking my pictures. It’s so sweet. I love her. She’s like my sister. And then the first time I was [in Berlin] with a film was in 2011 with Coriolanus. So I haven’t been back at the festival in 14 years. I’m really happy to be back.
Will you try and see some other films?
I’m only in Berlin for 24 hours! I won’t have a chance to see anything else. It’s press, premiere and then airport.
